Terre Haute Victory Lap

Good Night anti-White

Good Night anti-WhiteI wondered how the Leftists would respond to what the Terror in Terre Haute. It took them longer than usual to come up with their “angle” on the humiliating fiasco. Imagine my surprise to discover that the SPLC went with a hilarious conspiracy theory: “Indiana State University Police Say Beating of White Supremacist Protester May Have Been Staged”.

Mark Potok alleges that we’re secretly aligned with violent terrorists and wrapped up in a hare-brained opposite world of bizarro conspiracies. Evidently, he’s indulging in the quintessentially Jewish habit of projection.

Mysteriously, our intrepid anti-White investigator Spelunker has gone completely silent on this one for now. Good call.

Oh, to be one of the flies on the wall where the Southside Chicago ARA came up with their action report. As a fellow propagandist, I pity the polemicist enlisted with putting a triumphant spin on a tale that ends with our guys triumphantly standing over their guy whimpering in a pool of his own snot and tears.

At about 5 30pm members of the traditionalist youth network (TYN), a fascist organization based out of Indiana, joined by knights party, gathered at 7th and Cherry in Terre Haute, IN. The group was meeting up with supporters before their protest against Tim Wise’s speaking engagement at Indiana State University 3 blocks down.

Within 5 minutes of arriving at the meet-up location, 9 white supremacists were confronted by 3 antifascists as another anti-racist waiting for the protest looked on.

As both Tim Wise and the inevitable police reports will confirm, only five of our cadre had arrived, several minutes before the official kickoff. One of these “five” was a meek cancer-stricken septuagenarian. Thanks Southside, for throwing the fourth of the Terre Haute Four under the bus. You people can’t help yourselves. This is contrary to the conspiracy theory peddled by the Southern Poverty Law Center, in which there was only one anti-White.

The brawl was pretty evenly matched. Four of our healthy adult males versus three healthy adult males with knives, lock-n-socks, and the element of surprise. These men are supposedly skilled and trained street fighters. This should have been a piece of cake.

TYN’s leader Thomas Buhls received 2-3 punches to the face and had his mouth split open. Immediately after, one nazi was dropped to the floor with one punch while Brian Bryant, who hilariously drove 9 hours from Arkansas, threw his sign and ran away screaming as one of the antifascists chased him through the intersection.

Thomas received precisely one sucker punch to the face. Brian stood his ground. The only guy who “dropped to the floor” was Mason L. Welch, …repeatedly.

Another white supremacist also received about 5-6 blows to the head while being held by his shirt.

This “white supremacist” was the elderly man I knocked Mason L. Welch off of.

Meanwhile, Thomas Buhls cowardly pulled out his pepper spray and sprayed the uninvolved anti-racist onlooker (also accidentally pepper spraying Matthew Heimbach LOL!!) as Matt Parrott, who was tossed to the floor, grabbed onto his leg and held it while curling up in the fetal position like a docile child.

I wasn’t “tossed to the floor”, I tossed myself to the floor and brought Mason L. Welch of Chicago down with me.

It’s easy to get mixed up when adrenaline and pride are on the line, but this isn’t even internally consistent. Mason L. Welch was supposedly an “uninvolved anti-racist onlooker”? Heh. And they can tease me all they want for my ingenious “Leg Grasping Maneuver™” (hat tip to my nieces and nephews). Their plan was to “Bash ‘n Dash”, and I foiled that plan.

The anti-racist escaped his hold by punching his way out in self defense but then was later detained by the fascists and arrested. He got out the next morning on a measly misdemeanor battery.

Mason L. Welch got out the next morning on a “measly misdemeanor battery” charge, after offering a laughably false police report in which he was the only guy there (an account contradicted by the anti-Whites’ own PR Department). Indiana State’s police department proved exactly how friendly they are with us “fascists”, eagerly assuring the SPLC that they were biased in favor of the violent thugs.

Although the fascists outweighed the antifas, and outnumbered them almost 3-1, they did not manage to land a single punch.

We outnumbered them by a measly 4:3, and absolutely everybody involved–on both sides–received at least one good punch.

For a “militant street fighting force” the fascists were unimpressive and quickly resorted to cowardly pepper spraying someone and palling around with the local authorities.

We’re not street thugs. We’re cubicle drones, family men, factory workers, and college students who don’t sit around in dimly lit loft apartments smoking weed and fantasizing about jumping people. You got your asses beat at your own game of beating asses.

Needless to say Traditionalist Youth Network did not make it to their protest on time, or in full cadre, nor did they “offer resources” to any students or student groups.

Absolutely all of our cadre made it to the protest, …including our elderly comrade! And we made it on time. We joined up with several of our supporters who showed up after the brawl and enjoyed a spirited protest.

After the day was over the antifascists reached their most important goal; to attack white supremacists regardless of the outcome, and to refuse them any safety in organizing.

Maoists and Stalinists are notorious for their willingness to grind through their own supporters without hesitation or second thought. Evidently, America’s Marxists are no better. We at TradYouth never leave a fallen comrade; …Anti-Whites never miss an opportunity to leave one.

– Solidarity to the TP5

Six, actually. With more on the way!

Their own guys said it best…

Anarchist Butthurt

Nailed it.

130 Comments

Clayton Elmy

Back in June 2010, after SP1070, Tim Wise called for the extermination of white Arizona for being evil racists on his Facebook page. Now, I may be remembering wrong, but he used a word like exterminating, maybe “annihilating” or “eliminated”. I forget exactly (I have a screenshot of it on another computer). There were also commentators saying that to fight racism they need to “do what John Brown did” (i.e. kill people), and quoting Malcolm X.

So it’s a fact that Tim Wise and his supporters advocate violence against their opponents during less guarded moments. Wise basically called for genocide, after all

Lew

What kind of profoundly contemptible piece of filth goes after a defenseless old man? I guess the local police really are with them. I don’t see another explanation for pad lock guy and whoever went after the old man not facing felony charges.

Matt Parrott

Police departments answer to politicians. Politicians answer to anti-White scum. QED

The individual officers are privately and personally with us, but they’re against us in public and in practice.

Niemca

Matt that seriously depends on where you are if you’re speaking generally of how pro or anti-white cops are. I can tell you that in my state they are categorically anti-white.

Spelunker

I’d really like to know which person was assaulted with a lock in a sock and which person got slashed by the knife? My spider senses are tingling and are telling me no one. It’s very possible the individual arrested might have been carrying those weapons for personal protection, much like Matthew Heimbach carried a weapon upon a visit to the SPLC. Don’t hold your breath for any telling video. If they do post any it will be selectively edited. Matt Parrott and Matthew Heimbach are propagandists after all.

As far as violence goes, I can only speak for myself in saying that I myself wish to remain completely non violent. I think anyone trying to oppose you with violence is making a mistake. It’s clear that you are hoping that’s exactly what people will do so you can hold them out as shining examples of why your are the poor victim. I know that not everyone shares the same opinion, but I respectfully disagree with anyone that thinks that violence is the answer.

Matt Parrott

We don’t have video of the fight itself. We have video from after the fight.

I’d really like to know which person was assaulted with a lock in a sock and which person got slashed by the knife? My spider senses are tingling and are telling me no one.

He didn’t have an opportunity to use it. The other guys probably had weapons, too, but we’ll never know.

It’s very possible the individual arrested might have been carrying those weapons for personal protection

It’s not “personal protection”, either legally or by common sense, if you’re walking up with the intention of initiating a violent confrontation.

Matt Parrott and Matthew Heimbach are propagandists after all.

Granted. But there’s a difference between “propagandists” who put our on spin stuff and anonymous habitual liars. While our framing of events was certainly through our eyes, the details will all be corroborated by police reports, by bystanders, and by comrades. Tellingly, all the people on your side are coming out with entirely different accounts of what happened, while our side is on message. The truth is a lot easier to keep straight, after all.

I think anyone trying to oppose you with violence is making a mistake.

Chicago has some maniacal jerk literally shoveling young radicals into trap after trap after trap.

It’s clear that you are hoping that’s exactly what people will do so you can hold them out as shining examples of why your are the poor victim.

Well, we’re not actually *trying* to get HARMed. But, yeah, we’ll milk that episode for maximum shares and likes if/when it happens. Hospitals usually have free wi-fi.

Lew

Give me a break. Just because you might be feeling a modicum of shame that your side fielded the loser with the pad lock, it doesn’t give you the right to make up facts.

Your side is the one that likes using violence. You don’t seem stupid. You must know this. Maybe not you personally, but have you ever noticed the other losers on your side of these matters can’t ever just let people make up their own minds? If they can find a way to suppress white advocates, they will.

Why don’t you consider giving up your silly anti-white activism and join our side? If you have a zeal for doing good and an interest in political combat, you should join up with Matt and Matt, or someone like them, or at least take a neutral stance. Our side could use a dedicated person like you if you ever decide to come to your senses, and there are ex-anti-whites in the WNst movement.

With white folks being hounded to extinction all over the world, what you are doing in promoting anti-these white ideas is wrong. You should be ashamed of it.

Quite frankly, it does not take much in the way of courage to spew anti-white bromides. Look at Matt and Matt portraying themselves portraying “victims.”

Since you like peddling ideas like that, I can’t help but ask: when is the last time you checked your privilege and showed some deference to the blacks and feminists in your locality? I suggest you go forth and abase yourself right now. Practice what you preach.

Dustin

Wait, I am very confused.

Who called the police? Was it you or the “antifa”?

Why did you end up going into the Tim Wise event??

Brett Stevens

I wouldn’t stereotype all cops as anti-white. There’s shades of grey, and police officers are individuals.

Most are probably like the rest of the white people out there: just hoping the great mixed-race republic will work out somehow so we don’t have to have a revolution or other upheaval.

This is typical of any big question. Most people are afraid of anything but the devil they know.

Lew

The kind of white male that works as university cop or as street cop is exactly the kind of working to lower-middle class white male that gets spat on by this society. They are on the front lines for dispossession and destruction.

It’s quite ironic that they protect the very people who want to dispossess them and who speak in terms of “white privilege.” When such white cops go after white advocates, it’s an exercise in self-immolation that must bring a smile to the face of anti-whites like Tim Wise and his well-to-do white liberal supporters.

But any cop that wants a career and a family can’t show even the slightest hint of sympathy for white folks as white folks.

Spelunker

“He didn’t have an opportunity to use it.”

In what way? You’re making a very large ASSumption. You first need to prove he was going to use it and for what purpose. As far as I know, he had those items for self defense. I don’t believe for one second any of you went into this thinking there’d be no confrontation, if anything I think you were banking on it, I’m guessing he was too.

“It’s not “personal protection”, either legally or by common sense, if you’re walking up with the intention of initiating a violent confrontation.”

I’ve not seen any proof this individual had any intention of initiating a confrontation. I wasn’t there though. Nor have I seen any proof of his intentions for carrying any of the aforementioned weapons. I’m not making excuses for anyone but I’m not wholesale embracing your narrative either. Also, it’s not clear that he was carrying mace, from what I’ve read, however accurate, the only mace used was the mace one on your team used to mace your own guy. Again, I wasn’t there but it sounds like this was a fallacy.

“Tellingly, all the people on your side are coming out with entirely different accounts of what happened, while our side is on message.”

Oh, that’s right, my side, which is? I act alone. I speak for myself. I don’t have a “side”. I have right and wrong. To me, you are clearly the wrong side of the equation.

“Chicago has some maniacal jerk literally shoveling young radicals into trap after trap after trap.”

While I’m not sure about maniacal jerk, I do think there are those who are too easily falling into your not very well concealed traps.

As for Tim Wise, I’m not a supporter. I’d honestly never heard of the man before. I’ve read some things he’s said that make sense and that I can agree with and others not so much. I’m indifferent, but I don’t support violence and if he’s ever advocated for it, I don’t support that message. On the topic of violence though, I find it pretty hypocritical for your group to say you are against it, even though being on record saying your for it. I’m pretty sure my “side” doesn’t advocate for land mines on the border or desire our military to drop bombs on abortion clinics.

While I’m here, a little off topic, but the whole ethnostate thing, so, tax incentives to nudge each racial group into peacefully volunteering to separate? How does that work again, I mean the tax part of that? Can you guys please make up your mind if you like the government and want to use it or hate it and want to destroy it. I mean, it does make for good humor for me, but the joke only lasts so long. What state do the mixed race couples go to? Do they like get their own state? You guys are too much.

Matt Parrott

I don’t believe for one second any of you went into this thinking there’d be no confrontation, if anything I think you were banking on it, I’m guessing he was too.

I have been at this for pretty much my adult life. I’ve hosted and attended dozens of pro-White events. At nearly every one, some wanker somewhere claims they’re going to smash me. They’ve threatened to rape and kill me, with grinding regularity. I saw the chatter on the back channels, but there’s always chatter on the anti-White back channels.

I honestly and sincerely, stack of bibles, didn’t expect violence, even when shady characters showed up in skinny jeans.

While I’m not sure about maniacal jerk, […]

Both mystery man and I have similar jobs, in a way. We have motivated supporters. We have access to limited resources. We’re accountable for our men, our women, and our resources. Obviously, I hate his politics and so forth. And even if I personally liked him, I’m a propagandist, right? But the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, even when it’s not working. And what more clear metric of failure than having a string of motivated supporters in prison and the enemies emboldened and energized for their trouble.

The guy’s a maniacal jerk.

Can you guys please make up your mind if you like the government and want to use it or hate it and want to destroy it.

We’re pretty consistent on this, though we reserve the right to be inconsistent from time to time at our sole discretion. We’re opposed to *this* government in its current form, but not opposed to government in principle as an agent of positive social change.

Aitch Dee

“I’ve not seen any proof this individual had any intention of initiating a confrontation.”

Quite right. Who could have imagined that walking up and punching someone in the mouth might start a confrontation.

Spelunker

Just not opposed enough to want to use US government confiscated tax dollars to create your “ethnostate”. I mean you really have to get to the point of “Hail Mary” to be accepting of something you loathe in order to get your way. Even if the government gave you every single tax dollar meant for Obamacare, you’ll never see an ethnostate. It is not possible. There are far too many people, a majority who don’t want to voluntarily separate and not nearly enough resources available to ever make this a reality. You are dreamers, I’ll give you that.

By the way, the SPLC story did not accuse you of staging the confrontation, if you read it, it merely points out that it was the IU Police who had some question as to whether or not it was staged, it was only reported by the SPLC. From the SPLC article, “Indiana State University police are investigating what the department director says is the possibility that an assault on a member of the white supremacist Traditionalist Youth Network (TYN) by a lone anti-racist demonstrator was planned by TYN supporters.”

Maybe I have missed something here? Did I not just read that the Police Department director said there was a, as of the time of the articles writing, possibility that it might have been staged? That’s pretty far from being accused of staging it by the SPLC. For those that do know how to read (which apparently doesnt include pretty much anyone related to your group) there was some uncertainty by the Po-Po.
The article goes on to say, “”We’re not convinced it was a legitimate assault,” ISU Police Chief Bill Mercier told Hatewatch, adding that it may have been staged by the so-called victims.”

Is it just me, or is your beef with Police Chief Bill Mercier?

The story you have linked to tonight claims, “The radical left-wing SPLC published a report suggesting that the violence was a hoax.”

Not true. The story only repeated what was apparently a quote of the Police Chief.

“SPLC employee Keegan Hankes wrote an article for the SPLC calling the protesters “so-called victims.””

Which is true.

“He suggested that the violence was a hoax, even though one of the attackers was arrested and was in police custody. Hankes also suggests that the protesters sprayed themselves with mace.”

He did suggest the possibility of a hoax based on information given to him by police. As far as saying you sprayed yourselves with mace, no he did not, the only mention of mace in Hankes’ article was, “Despite reports by TYN supporters that multiple counter-protesters attacked Buhls with Mace, a knife, and a sock containing a lock, an ISU police report indicates that Welch was the lone attacker. In the report, Buhls states that he was only punched, and police indicate that Welch was the only one sprayed with Mace during the conflict – by TYN members, while being restrained. Officers said they did find a knife and a “lock tied to a piece of cloth” when they searched Welch.”

Did I read that right? “Police indicated”?

Somebodies got some splainin’ to do.

Matt Parrott

By the way, the SPLC story did not accuse you of staging the confrontation, if you read it, it merely points out that it was the IU Police who had some question as to whether or not it was staged, it was only reported by the SPLC.

Suddenly, Spelunker has miraculously come around to analyzing soundbites in their full context! Either way, it was profoundly ignorant of the ISUPD and it was profoundly foolish of the SPLC to breathlessly relay it.

Not true. The story only repeated what was apparently a quote of the Police Chief.

You’re really grasping here, boss.

Somebodies got some splainin’ to do.

We stopped fighting when he stopped fighting. Period. Your allies came and started a violent confrontation and we stopped the violent confrontation. Nobody was seriously injured. Nobody went to the hospital. Nothing to explain.

Trainspotter

Spelunker: “Just not opposed enough to want to use US government confiscated tax dollars to create your “ethnostate”.

Odd, and not terribly substantive, objection to the ethnostate. It’s true that some have suggested that tax incentives to help people move to the territory of their choice might be a tool to achieve an ethnostate peacefully. But the idea of the ethnostate, the Cause if you will, certainly does not rest upon any particular tool. The tax incentive idea has simply been thrown out as one possible approach among many that may help avoid harsher and less peaceful outcomes. Very strange that you chose this to fixate upon.

To frame matters as us wanting to suckle upon the government money faucet is beyond ridiculous, and you’re really grasping at straws to try.

The truth is that any advocate of the white ethnostate wants absolutely nothing from people such as yourself, other than separation. The idea that we’re trying to get our hands on your tax money is laughably absurd. We seek a sovereign and independent homeland for our people. I’d be willing to bet that any advocate of the white ethnostate would be willing for all tax advantages to apply only to non-whites and white anti-whites. You guys can get all of the tax benefit from separation. Whatever. As long as separation is achieved, I can’t imagine any of us would have a problem with that. We’ll recreate whatever wealth is lost, and our cause goes far beyond pecuniary interests anyway.

There is joke that goes something like this: “Why is divorce so expensive? Because it’s worth it.” Getting a divorce from you guys would be worth a pretty penny, I assure you. Your silly framing of this issue has things completely, utterly backwards.

Maybe Lew is right. If you are reduced to such weak arguments, perhaps it is time to question the side that you are on. The ideal of the ethnostate is one of sovereignty and independence, not one of oppression. Our people will have our own nation, and there will be no non-whites in that nation to oppress.

By opposing the ethnostate, you can no longer frame your cause in terms of fighting oppression. You are instead opposing the identity, sovereignty, and continuity of a particular people that seek independence. You want to devote your spare time to opposing a people seeking its own sovereignty? Really? And not even get a government paycheck to do it? Which, while it would still be immoral, would at least make a vile sort of sense in a mercenary way.

I guess it takes all kinds, but if you have any sense of shame whatsoever, perhaps it’s time to take a second look at some of your assumptions.

John Galt

Matt, since you don’t have a video, maybe a copy of the police report from Mr. Buhls would clear this up for good. If the article is as flimsy as you suggest, which it almost certainly is given that it’s coming straight from the poverty palace, it would make sense to go straight to the facts.

Maybe it’ll even shut “spelunker” up.

Dustin

Whenever I read the radical propaganda created by antifas, their supporters such as Spelunker, and radical organizations such as the SPLC, I become more and more convinced that America should have been a monarchy, not a republic. And by “monarchy” I mean a real monarchy, not a “figurehead monarchy” such as Britain is today (and had been heading towards being ever since the scourge of Puritan fanatic Oliver Cromwell during his so-called “English Civil War” in the 1640s).

But in any event, the language and associated paraphernalia of republicanism have provided the Spelunkers, antifas, and SPLCs of the world with a powerful arsenal with which they have used to attack legitimacy, properness, and order ever since what would become republicanism was initially invented by the marauders of the 1200 B.C. Catastrophe which felled the Great Kingdoms of our ancestors.

Taking republicanism away and instituting a kingly government is the fastest way to instantly deprive the Spelunkers, antifas, and SPLCs of this world of a very vast resevoir of radical verbiage, paraphernalia, and weaponry.

Therefore we should be working to remake America as a monarchy, just as all of our Great Kingdoms were.

Spelunker

Now that’s my white privelege, people who oppose the Traditionalist Youth Network (or similar groups) are now known as Spelunkers! Although, I have no need for radical verbiage, paraphernalia or weaponry. Heimbach is a destructive force all by himself. You guys make this too easy. I’ll see you crazy lovers Saturday in Philly, but you won’t see me.

Brett Hillman

How much do you have to donate to the $PLC to kiss their ass?

Matt Parrott

Why don’t you apply your investigative reporting wizardry to that, Spelunker?

I’ll post it here on the site, for better or worse.

Lew

I can’t tell from these comments if Spelunker has any original thoughts of his own, or if he is just a garden-variety cliche machine.

The anti-whites have done such a thorough job poisoning the well people often assume that anyone who speaks in terms of white, white interests, white community, white ethnostate, etc. is malicious and out to hurt people.

Lew

Don’t be surprised if the report does not reflect the truth, especially if SPLC is looking over their shoulder and race is at issue. It’s not a perfect parallel, and I don’t mean to suggest these situations are exactly the same. But the powers that be made Detective Serino in the Trayvon case re-write the police report until it said what they wanted it to say.

Matt Parrott

Well, the police weren’t there. So it would necessarily be an amalgam of our statements and Mason’s statements, through the lens of their own perceptions, biases, influences, and pressures. I don’t believe they got any statements from any objective observers.

None of the cars driving past or witnesses milling around spoke to the police, that I noticed.

Either way, the police report is welcome in the conversation if somebody wishes to produce it.

The Liberty Lamp

Spelunkie- You know you are addressing a band of fools. The sad part is that Matt Parrott WAS the only one in this group who really had a decent chance of a good life, but he threw it away.
He grew up with nice parents, and showed signs of being a tech talent early in his life. He then got married to a beautiful woman, and with her, had beautiful kids.
Unfortunately, the silicone chip inside his head got switched to overload and he decided that chasing empty WN nationalist pipe dreams took precedence over the exact traditional family life he and the other WN hypocrites claim they are fighting for. Matt threw it all away to hang out with Matt Heimbach (the new Bill White) and Tom Buhls (the new Vonbluvens) and for what? To take bad cell phone photos of five idiots holding signs at events with the goal to immaturely alienate the public. I had even more respect for him when he had a decent size C of CC group going, a regular newsletter and a few scrappy business ventures. Now look at him. Very sad to see one of the few in the WN scene with a decent mind and half of a chance at life hit such rock bottom.

Lew

Shouldn’t you and spelunker be apologizing for slavery somewhere?

At least Tim Wise is pulling down some serious bank for his efforts.

You two are just like him: cliche machines except half as entertaining. How much do you two make off abasing yourself, your families and your friends?

The Liberty Lamp

Lew- you wouldn’t happen to be Ron Paul’s whipping boy “Lew Rockwell” who also had the brief love affair with Cindy Sheehan, would you?

Just wondering…

Lew

Yes. You might not be aware that the late Professor Rothbard and I even collaborated on his newsletters.

Now, why aren’t you off somewhere checking your privilege? Do you take your beliefs seriously or don’t you?

400 years of slavery man. You’re the beneficiary of it, no?

Go forth to Gary or the South side of Chicago and apologize. Just tell them the truth; tell them you’re racked with guilt when see that Euro phenotype in the mirror every morning, that you understand you can’t draw breath without benefiting from unearned white privilege and that you’re there to atone for it…

The Liberty Lamp

Now…now…Lew…if you are the REAL Lew Rockwell aren’t you just a wee bit curious on how I found out about the Cindy Sheehan indiscretion?
You know how many loose lips are yanking on the wannabe wonk scene and if you pour enough drinks in to…oh I don’t know…”the other McCain” … they like to prove they are playing with the big boys, even though they are really not.

I guess you’d have to be the real Lew Rockwell to get what I am saying…LOL!

Matt Parrott

Lamp is Jewish, so there’s really no contradiction to work out. He’s opposed to White Christendom as a tribal imperative (save for Whites attacking Whites and Christendom or Christians attacking Christendom and Whites, of course).

And I categorically did not choose my calling over my family. I have never filed for a divorce or faltered on my oath.

The Liberty Lamp

You know Matthew, the big advantage the anti-racist organizations and activists have over the WN scene is not only our ability to avoid falling down rabbit holes of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, like the WN does, but we also spend copious amounts of time studying everything about the WN scene. We do this undercover, with little to no drama and report our findings. The antifa kids you come into contact with are only a small fraction of what the anti-racist scene really is. And while we are doing our research and fact collecting, you are busy being show boating fools and making yourselves into easy targets.
Anti-racism is not a movement, it is a large machine, one that you cannot define properly because you are so busy trying to propagandize you have lost the reality of what it is, therefore, you will never be able to dent it, let alone tear it down. Throwing the “Jew” label on anyone or any group that has you crying uncle in on a comment section, shows how unprepared and weak your positioning is. Come on, Matt, you can do better than this, you had such a bright future ahead of you, WTF?

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

Your concern for my personal success is touching.

The fact that the anti-White machine is a vast and sprawling force far larger than I can fathom makes our little victories that much sweeter. Perhaps if your dark army can figure out how to move on to more constructive things than “bash ‘n dash” and prank phone calls, we’ll be done for.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- I hate seeing smart people go to waste. In many ways you are like us in the Lamp collective, we are neck bearded geeks and nerds, only you’re on the other side of the line, which is a great disappointment.

No, we don’t have a dark army, must there always be bad fantasy novel references in everything you guys write?

We are really no different than you are, only we are smarter on how we go about things and we have a much larger and more stable network to connect to.
Victories? What victories? Your “victories” have about as much impact as those “bash and dash” actions you refer to.
And for the record, nobody involved with the Lamp collective has ever done a violent act.
We are research nerds and do investigative reporting.

Trainspotter

Lamp “And for the record, nobody involved with the Lamp collective has ever done a violent act. We are research nerds and do investigative reporting.”

Um…why? System organs, both governmental and non, do this to damage and demonize white activists all the time. They infiltrate, disrupt, and “investigate.” But somehow, in your deluded fantasy world, you imagine that you are cutting edge because you, well, do the exact same thing that the system organs do. How edgy.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- Sorry, we are geeks who don’t physically harm. We even have the full uncut Lord of the Rings collection, Buffy till season four, and all of Babylon Five and Star Trek original series.
We are nerds who don’t throw punches, we research and report on racists. And for the record, I have nothing against European heritage. I have been to the UK several times and have a great fondness for British history and culture. I even have a jar of Marmite in the cupboard.

Yes, we are a very scary bunch!

Matt Parrott

We are nerds who don’t throw punches, we research and report on racists.

You actively collaborate with and support violent factions, and you’re admittedly part of a machine which includes those violent factions. You gather and report information with the express and implied purpose of threatening and intimidating those who disagree with you. You tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the day, but the antifa rely on data monkeys like yourself for their work.

If your motives were lucid and sincere, you would be ignoring us while focusing on right wing groups which actually do have an ideology and history of violence. We’re anti-colonialist, actively collaborate with minority advocates on a daily basis (not as a one-off stunt, mind you), and even organize peace rallies. If you were actually trying to fight White oppression, you would be taking on Beltway Republicans, multinational executives, and bankers.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- I would no assume what we do or don’t do. There are some who are a small part of the movement who do the things you are referring to. Whether we agree or disagree with them is irrelevant to the public, we all stand united because we are on the same side and we don’t air dirty laundry for the public like your side does.
Do I agree with their actions? I am not going to give my opinion on that, I will report and support them as fellow anti-racists.
Do I believe they should take on our tactics instead? I will tell you this, I do, but, I will leave it at that.

Now about beltway Republicans and bankers…have you dug deep into our blog?
Bankers? http://ladylibertyslamp.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/wanted-trolled-or-alive-brian-moynihan-the-criminal-ceo-of-bank-of-america/
We had done a number of articles on Republicans.

Why do we focus on you? Well, we don’t focus on you as much as you think, we do focus on others too. But you want the spotlight so badly, we are here to oblige you.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

we don’t air dirty laundry for the public like your side does.

Touché.

I will report and support them as fellow anti-racists.

We definitely have a thing or two to learn from y’all.

We had done a number of articles on Republicans.

Touché, again.

But you want the spotlight so badly, we are here to oblige you.

My activist career is defined by repeated attempts to avoid leadership and limelight in favor of logistics and wonkery. I’ll “street fight” if I have to, and I’ll step up to the mic if I have to, but you evidently get me, and have a sense for where I’m most comfortable.

Speaking for the organization, we do appreciate and enjoy the free publicity. Don’t take our bickering with you here to imply that we’re not stoked about throwing the anti-White back office into panic mode.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- I think this banter is healthy and more of our way of doing things. We like to try open communication with those from your side who are intelligent enough to have it. You fit the bill, therefore, I choose to take a huge chunk of time in putting off my real life work into getting this dialogue going.
I can tell you’re awkward in the spotlight, and I do commend your guts in taking it on, but I would advise you to do otherwise for the sake of your family.
You would have made a good K st wonk, Matt, you have a decent head on your shoulders, but you are taking on an alienating cause and fall-on-your-sword issues which was an unfortunate move on your part.

You would have been better off working behind the scenes for Pat or Bay, (as long as you stayed sober and didn’t punch women in Georgetown) and drew a good salary with your writing and tech abilities.

But, you chose the path of the extreme and that can be damaging, and again, there is where we have more in common than you think.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

(as long as you stayed sober and didn’t punch women in Georgetown)

Correction: He karate-chopped her.

I’ve always despised that arrogant bipolar twerp. Let’s have ourselves a win-win and you expose him. He would probably actually mind it.

The Liberty Lamp

“I’ve always despised that arrogant bipolar twerp. Let’s have ourselves a win-win and you expose him. He would probably actually mind it.”

Okay, there we have another thing in common!

Who told you we were the ones who exposed him? *shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh* 🙂

The Liberty Lamp

You couldn’t tell? Just look at this scene! Take a step back and look at the whole picture and what do you see? Moronic pseudo philosophy and theories that have no grounding in reality. Concepts of fairytale “homelands” that can never come into being. Narcissism, false sense of importance, overblown images of their own selves.

It’s like watching 13 yr olds do a bad cosplay of a combination of Brave Heart, Lord of the Rings and Downfall and lose sight that nothing they are doing is reality.

Trainspotter

Lamp: “Concepts of fairytale “homelands” that can never come into being.”

Yes, of course you’re right. The United States is clearly set upon a highly sustainable path. It will last forever. While we indulge in fantasy, you’re entirely reality-based. LOL!

Lamp: “It’s like watching 13 yr olds do a bad cosplay of a combination of Brave Heart, Lord of the Rings and Downfall and lose sight that nothing they are doing is reality.”

You mean Lord of the Rings wasn’t real?!? *sniff*

In all seriousness, Lamp, you might want to take a step back and take a nice look at the forest. How do you think that the corrupt, degenerate cesspool that you encourage us to swim in looks to more and more people, both here and across the world? Care to consider how fast it is losing legitimacy? Your apparent belief in the perpetual nature of the status quo is, despite certain appearances, more unrealistic and fantasy-based than our desire for a sovereign homeland.

But even if our goal seems like a longshot, the reality is that a an unsustainable system will inevitably create opportunities, and we can hardly be blamed for seeking to leverage those opportunities.

I’m sure your advice for us to put our heads in the sand is well meaning, and I have no doubt whatsoever that you really have our best interests at heart…BUT…I’m afraid we’ll just have to muddle along without your approval. I guess that’s our cross to bear.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- I think it’s a big jump to assume and define for me what my fight is. Yes, I am fighting for the freedom of diversity. I do not, however, fight for a sick and violent society that would be based in either a diverse or homogeneous society. I disagree with Jared Taylor on a number of issues including that a homogeneous society has a superior standing. One example of this is Israel, and as a Jew I can point out how that ethnocentric experiment is a disaster.
Our planet is getting smaller, and our communication technology is bringing the world together. Diversification is a natural process.

Trainspotter

“One example of this is Israel, and as a Jew I can point out how that ethnocentric experiment is a disaster.”

A big part of that disaster is that it is a supremacist society, with a large pool of necessarily second-class citizens. We don’t seek that. The whole point of a true ethnostate, as opposed to an apartheid society masquerading as one, is to avoid those pitfalls.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- that is a nice fantasy, but when every ethnocentric societies have been tried they have always gone by the way of supremacy. Israel was formally founded by the Kibbutz movement which was supposed to be based in a egalitarian worker’s system. That failed. Also, it isn’t just a class issue in Israel, there is a huge problem over ideologies of what the state should be based in within the Jewish ethnicity. That is, I believe, always the root of the problems in a ethno-nationalist country.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

that is a nice fantasy, but when every ethnocentric societies have been tried they have always gone by the way of supremacy.

The temptation to dominate and exploit other peoples is universal. Throughout history, a lot of countries which started out as simple ethnic kingdoms lurched away from that. I agree that it’s a big problem. There are, however, examples of it actually working for impressively long spans of time. Meanwhile, the dream of a multi-tribal society without tribal supremacy and exploitation has truly never worked. Not even once.

Trainspotter

Previous ethnocentric movements have generally allowed a de facto mixed society, but with a dominant ethny on top. That is a fundamental mistake which leads to the problems that you are, in error, attributing to us: friction, exploitation, oppression and instability. You are blaming us for the very condition that we ourselves critique and seek a path out of.

Our challenge is to develop and promote a vision of an authentic ethnostate, not the exploitative and vulgar arrangements that are far more pronounced in mixed societies. It is a worthy goal and in time, I believe, will find a signficant audience.

While it’s hard to make predictions, especially about the future (ha), I suspect that the 21st century will be more about tribe, tradition and identity than platitudes about diversity. We’ll see, but again, I think the vision that you scoff at will find an audience. To a certain extent, and admittedly in a rather limited way, I think the process has already begun.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- I disagree, I think tribalism is on the way out and knows it, which explains it’s last dying outcry.

We are moving into natural diversification as people are moving and resettling around the world. Telecommunications, tech and internet have busted down the barriers that once were the foundation of tribalism.

I foresee a very diverse future.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

By a process of elimination, every state on earth is either an approximation of an ethnic nation-state or a recent amalgamation of once-sovereign nation-states which are now in conflict. Ireland, Romania, Iran, Mongolia, and Japan are all examples of tribe and tradition working. Humans are integrally tribal, and the notion of dissolving tribal identity into a harmonious global community is a Marxist pipe dream that the global capitalists are all too eager to humor in pursuit of profit.

See, capitalism is not fundamentally racist — it can exploit racism for its purposes, but racism isn’t built into it. Capitalism basically wants people to be interchangable cogs, and differences among them, such as on the basis of race, usually are not functional. I mean, they may be functional for a period, like if you want a super exploited workforce or something, but those situations are kind of anomalous. Over the long term, you can expect capitalism to be anti-racist — just because its anti-human.

Noam Chomsky

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

We are moving into natural diversification as people are moving and resettling around the world. Telecommunications, tech and internet have busted down the barriers that once were the foundation of tribalism.

Your people have demonstrated better than anybody that it’s both possible and advisable to maintain tribal solidarity despite deep integration with and exposure to other groups. Roma, Irish Travelers, Parsis, Black Americans, and Native Americans are demonstrating right now that tribalism can and will survive the dramatic changes in geographical and sociological circumstances which were the norm for most tribes up until technological innovation shrunk the world.

Trainspotter

Lamp, time will tell. What you see as a dying outcry, I see as a resurgence due to the increasingly obvious failure of multiculturalism and diversity. We are simply the early adopters, there will be many more in time.

Still, and I intend to leave the thread after this post (unless something really cries out for a response, otherwise you get last word), you should consider Matt’s point. If you guys really are *radical,* there is little reason to oppose advocates of an authentic and non-exploitative tribalism. Further, if tribalism is really dying, then we will not find an audience, and the whole point is mute. But I think you sense that tribalism isn’t dying, which may explain your concern.

Conversely, there are plenty of reasons to focus on system organs that are actually doing the things that you claim to oppose. Just a thought. But if you really went after them, you risk being demonized as much as we are, or at least somewhat. I’m guessing you guys don’t really want that. Can’t say I even blame you, but you should recognize reality for what it is.

Lew

Telecommunications, tech and internet have busted down the barriers that once were the foundation of tribalism

Absurd. If tribalism has no future, then why aren’t jews disbanding their numerous tribal interest groups (Anti-Defamation League, American Jewish Committee, World Jewish Congress, to name but a few)?

If smart white folks want to know whether tribalism and tribal identify matter in a technologically linked, globalized world, then look no further than the Jewish community’s deeds (not words). The question answers itself.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- I don’t understand why you’ve inserted that quote. Chomsky isn’t stating that capitalism is inherently racist or anti-racist, just that it’s motivated by the drive for the greatest possible profit from a given environment. If that environment is one where racism is inherent, the capitalist means of operation will be racist (and stridently so) to adapt to be able to appeal to the widest possible array of consumers. If that environment is not racist or perceives racism in a negative light, the capitalist means of operation will not engage in practices that will alienate a large sector of potential consumers.

This is borne out in the rest of the quote, which you omitted:

“And race is in fact a human characteristic—there’s no reason why it should be a negative characteristic, but it is a human characteristic. So therefore identifications based on race interfere with the basic ideal that people should be available just as consumers and producers, interchangeable cogs who will purchase all the junk that’s produced—that’s their ultimate function, and any other properties they might have are kind of irrelevant, and usually a nuisance.”

This does not mean that all anti-racists are inherently capitalists, either. Rather, I would posit that a vast majority of anti-racists identify with leftist or anti-capitalist ideals precisely because they see capitalism as a catalyst and mass exploiter of racism.

Has tribalism really been a positive force for the examples you cited? They still exist, that’s true— but they exist in deeply impoverished states that are the result of decades— centuries, even— of intensely racist oppression. In the case of the Irish, it’s even more ridiculous because the nature of their oppression was not due a question of their race, but that they were shoehorned into the “different race” camp because of their religious beliefs and their refusal to submit to English imperial rule.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- My concern is not the growing future of tribalism, but the reactions during this last outcry. I foresee a very diverse future, I just want to keep an eye on the craziness happening now.

Lew- Since its is obvious that you are NOT the real Lew Rockwell, but a lesser imitation model, let me try to point out to you that a few nonprofit 501C3s are not necessarily the reflection of what will be in the future.
The real Lew Rockwell would know how the game is played, you obviously are running on passed down bullet points.

Trainspotter

Lamp: “You know Matthew, the big advantage the anti-racist organizations and activists have over the WN scene is not only our ability to avoid falling down rabbit holes of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories…”

LOL! The big advantage that you have is that you are system hacks, promoting the same ridiculous, anti-white ideology that …wait for it…the system does.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- Hacks are people who fake it, we aren’t faking it. Fools are people who buy into conspiracy theories that have no bases in reality.

Trainspotter

The anti-white agenda is in plain sight. Who needs conspiracy theories?

Niemca

Liberty, you sure put a lot of energy into criticizing a group who according to you are so laughable they don’t merit the attention.

‘White Privilege’ has no basis in reality yet your ilk endlessly rails against this biological conspiracy that doesn’t, nor ever did, exist.

Trainspotter

I’ll try not to. I don’t consider commenting on obvious anti-white policies to be falling down a rabbit hole.

I don’t indulge in conspiracy theories for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I don’t need them to make my case.

The Liberty Lamp

Niemica- you sure put a lot of energy defending a group who believes your body belongs to your husband and you should have your reproductive rights stripped from you.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- well, then try to keep in mind that I do like and respect much of the white culture, western art and history, I just don’t find it superior and that it should be the dominant culture.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

you sure put a lot of energy defending a group who believes your body belongs to your husband and you should have your reproductive rights stripped from you.

The bible verse that was plucked from directly states that the man’s body belongs to the woman, as well, reciprocally. We’re not advocating for the gender dynamics which were largely the product of obsolete socioeconomic circumstances. Innovation and economic changes now afford both men and women a degree of autonomy and freedom which was simply unsustainable beforehand. Women are actively encouraged to participate as equal stakeholders in this struggle, and can expect a much better future with our team’s success than with yours.

Though, reality is what it is.

We’ve placed women in prominent positions in the past and we’ve seen how viciously those you’re eagerly in solidarity with target them with violence, threats, and incessant intimate personal attacks. They’re right there with us, though they now work primarily behind the scenes and under male or gender-neutral pseudonyms.

Niemca

Better my body belonged to my white husband than a bunch of jews calling me shiksa or ‘abomination,’ and blacks and hispanics calling me ‘white bitch,’ ‘gringa,’ etc. It’s incredible that an anti-White can come on here and suggest I’d be better treated by Diversity Cultists than my own White men. Maybe check out the ongoing trial of Natasha McShane’s hispanic assailant and while you’re at it, fill me in on what Christina Eilman has to say on the matter. Which is nothing as she, like Natasha, can no longer speak courtesy of Diversity Cult’s special relationship with White women, aka as mass rape, torture and sexual slavery.

You say we air our dirty laundry here in public, and perhaps we do, but that might be because, unlike your camp, we have nothing of real consequence to hide – no glaring inconsistencies or hypocrisies. Matt is right in that I do belong to my White men, and they to me. There are no men, no people, on the planet who treat women with the respect that Whites do. Of all my tribe’s and people’s qualities, of this I am the absolute proudest, rest assured. Judging by the way women of all races flock to countries built by White men, and women, it looks as if they’re pretty much in unanimous agreement with me.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- The bible is an opinion, if you see it as your own personal law, fine for you, if your wife agrees with it, again, her choice.
I don’t think Niemica is of the mindset that her body belongs to anyone but her, I could be wrong, but her comments seem to imply that.

What violence have I committed on women? Again, you are jumping into extreme rhetoric to try to prove a point that loses it’s impact because of the ambiguity.

Try again…

The Liberty Lamp

Niemica- I would never call you a “shiksa” or an abomination. You are free to marry who you like, have as many children as you choose.

If you ran into Jewish people in your life who did or said cruel and racist things to you, I am sorry. They were wrong and I would have said something to them had I been present.

Jews are not excused from racism, I am fully aware of Jewish racism and we do report on Pam Geller, Horowitz and that crowd.

If a white man makes you happy, then that is who you should be with. Everyone should have the freedom to date and marry whom they choose.

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

Zionist Model = Israel
Mormon Model = Guy who has a vision and heads West with Kool Aid drinkers
Racist Rapture Model = aka the “Prepper” Model, veering wildly into Alex Jones territory
Aryan Spring Model = Arab Spring meets Ku Klux Klan
Cherokee Model = The turkey carves itself

That pretty much sums it up. I would note that they’re not necessarily exclusive.

For instance, I believe that pursuit of the Zionist Model would inevitably create the threat of the Aryan Spring, perhaps compelling the turkey to carve itself rather than deal with that.

Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

Spelunker

I’d still like to know what other plans there are for the ethnostate model. It was pointed out earlier that I touched only one model for achieving ethnostates and the reason is, it’s the only one I’ve ever heard. Don’t you think the whole idea would be really, really difficult if not next to impossible to bring to fruition? Logistically, it’s a total nightmare. If somebody could just put forward one clearly thought out, logical, feasible plan that makes sense, I’d seriously weigh the merits, but no one can. Honestly, I think you guys are scared to death to talk about how to get from A to Z because in the back of your minds, you know how messy this would be. I can even go as far as saying that as a vehicle to stop infighting between the different races, if you want to classify the minor skirmishes that do sometimes occur in society as that, that separating makes sense. Do not take what I just said as advocating for it, I am merely just saying that if peace is the end goal, I’m down for that. Regardless, I would absolutely love a real discussion on what this process looks like and how it’s structured. Call me curious. I’d just love for you all to show me just how smart you are and how stupid I am. Since Matt and Matt are the de facto leaders of this cluster-f, maybe they would be in the best position to detail The A to Z plan from what we live under now, to peaceful separation of the races. I mean here’s your golden opportunity to have a real discussion with some real live Leftists, are you gonna choke?

Spelunker

Here’s your chance boys, I’m looking at this with an open mind and accepting for sake of argument the premise you mean well.

Spelunker

Via Trainspotter:

“It’s true that some have suggested that tax incentives to help people move to the territory of their choice might be a tool to achieve an ethnostate peacefully. But the idea of the ethnostate, the Cause if you will, certainly does not rest upon any particular tool. The tax incentive idea has simply been thrown out as one possible approach among many that may help avoid harsher and less peaceful outcomes. Very strange that you chose this to fixate upon.”

Spelunker

Perfect timing Niemca, right there to make the point that for a lot of people this is not about peaceful separation, it’s about animosity, stereotyping and hatred. You just had to go there when we’re trying to have a productive conversation like big boys and girls.

Niemca

I simply spoke the words that Natasha and Christina, and an endless list of White women like them, cannot anymore. You see, I can still walk on two legs to try to ‘separate’ myself, ‘like a big girl…’

Trainspotter

I guess this does “cry out” for a response, so I’ll bite. Spelunker, I suggested a possibility in my earlier post. Once the territory of the white ethnostate is decided upon, non-whites and those whites who want to leave can be given tax incentives or some other form of financial assistance to do so. In contrast, the whites who want to move there from other parts of the country will receive no such assistance; we’ll do it on our own dime. Again, divorce is so expensive because it’s worth it.

Personally, I’d recommend that the new white nation be willing to “buy out” non-whites at full market value plus a reasonable premium. White anti-whites can be bought out at full market value but, sorry, no premium for you guys! Let’s carry out the separation with some form of progressive stack, just to make this interesting.

How fair can we be?

But let’s be honest: it’s not likely to happen that way, and not because of our side. It’s because the anti-whites love to denigrate us but have absolutely no intention of letting us go, at least if they can avoid it. They are already bragging about “turning us brown,” and they now consider this within their grasp. I think whites, a remnant of them anyway, will be able to break free at a certain point, but it will probably be a rather messy and all around unpleasant process. But hey, that’s the way nations are typically born.

In any event, a google search will reveal any number of essays on this subject. Just one example among many:

http://www.toqonline.com/blog/a-modest-proposal/

Various writers have made fairly detailed proposals in the past, like Michael Hart or Richard McCulloch, but these visions are fairly dated, and typically envision whites retaining most (though not all) of the present territory of the United States. I don’t think that’s possible, or even desirable anymore, but there may be bits and pieces of those earlier proposals that could still be of value.

Point is, it certainly *could* be done peacefully. But will it? Doubtful, yet hope springs eternal. I would say that, even if just for propaganda purposes, an updated and sensible proposal should be crafted and made available. To my knowledge, there is no such proposal currently on the shelf. The prevailing assumption, shared by me, is that no peaceful partition will be allowed. Again, that’s not our fault.

What is our fault is that as of now, even we WN can’t agree on where the future White Republic should be, so at this point it’s about promoting an aspiration, a dream, with specific details lacking. Yeah, that’s kind of pathetic, I’ll admit. But once the dream takes hold in enough hearts and minds, the specifics will easily follow. We’re just not there yet, and I have no intention of denying that.

I’ll also mention, more as an aside, that as the nation grows more diverse and dysfunctional, it is entirely possible that there will be other substantial groups that wish to secede as well. Perhaps the various factions can make common cause on that one point, if they can agree to stake out distinct, non-overlapping territories. It would certainly help undermine the system propaganda machine if a united front – however ironically – proposed peaceful separation, thus giving the lie to the claim that we just “hate one another” and want to do violence to each other. We need to upend the enemy’s deceitful framing and replace it with an accurate frame.

The Liberty Lamp

Trainspotter- You do know that Michael Hart is Jewish? I did have the opportunity of meeting him once, he s very smart, I will give you that, but a tad bit odd in that wonkie way.

Your theories are not entirely out of the ball park, as they are the very close to the models being used in the gentrification.

In certain cities, hoards of nonwhites are being “bought out” and relocated in lower income suburban areas.

There are numerous problems with the outcome. First, this is not just a racist based model but a very classist and capitalist one. Old generational family homes are being almost ripped from low income black people, who are then herded into low income mostly white neighborhoods with no real open dialogue, mediation or integration plan.
There is anger and resentment and then further racial problems.

And then rich white people make tons of cash from tearing down these old homes and building condo developments that rich yuppies can move into… screw the poor, black or white.

I don’t like it, but I bet Michael Hart would!

Trainspotter

Lamp: “You do know that Michael Hart is Jewish? I did have the opportunity of meeting him once, he s very smart, I will give you that, but a tad bit odd in that wonkie way.”

I was aware of that, and it’s been quite awhile since I’ve read his proposal, and do not necessarily endorse it. But I have no problem giving a hearing to anyone who is devoting serious thought to authentic sovereignty and partition. I would encourage any serious thinker, of whatever background, to contribute to an improved body of work on this subject. It is not nearly as well developed as it should and could be, but I predict that will change in the reasonably near future.

Spelunker

Please, this is for Trainspotter only, interested in your opinion only on this. Before you jump all over me for asking so many questions, don’t forget, I am trying to get an understanding of what we are talking about. It’s very hard for me to give an opinion on something I can’t define or quantify.

“the new white nation be willing to “buy out” non-whites at full market value plus a reasonable premium. White anti-whites can be bought out at full market value but, sorry, no premium for you guys!”

Now this is going to sound really, really stupid, but this is in an economic sense, correct? Money will be given to certain groups to incentivize them voluntarily moving to their new area, am I understanding this correct? So let’s say for instance you are an African American family of four. Mom, Dad, Son and Daughter. You live in a two story rowhome in Baltimore City. Let’s just say Baltimore City is one of the areas that goes to African Americans as part of their ethnostate. Following me so far? So you have another African American family of two, Husband and Wife, that live in Fairfax, VA. Northern Virginia becomes it’s own ethnostate, let’s say this one goes to Jewish people. So the African Americans are expected to leave the Jewish ethnostate for the African American one, right? (The lines and divisions are still very arbitrary, don’t get stuck on that, just envision they are there and these are the divisions). What’s a fair market value to pay the African American Lawyer and his Wife living in an affluent neighborhood in Northern Virginia to pack up and move to their new ethnostate, Baltimore City? Given the current rundown nature of a majority of the city of Baltimore, do you think this is a reasonable expectation? I guess a big part of my skepticism is how do we get from the current government/taxation model based on a union of States, to something else basically resembling a bunch of autonomous States.

“They are already bragging about “turning us brown,”

Define “they” and when you say bragging about turning you brown, that is not already happening? Don’t you think that society has already been turning brown for quite a while now? Not in my immediate family, but in my extended family, there are race mixers. I have friends as well that have mixed races. I don’t not want to see those people again or be separated from them, where do we go? The race mixers and myself. Do we get our own race mixing ethnostate? That’s problematic too because I’m not a race mixer. Do I just get lumped in though?

“I think whites, a remnant of them anyway, will be able to break free at a certain point, but it will probably be a rather messy and all around unpleasant process.”

What do you envision happening to the other remnants that are not able to break free? When you say “break free”, in my mind what you are saying is that a certain portion of whites achieve the goal of an ethnostate, even a small one. So if Craig Cobb turns Leith all white and is able to maintain it, technically, he has already created an ethnostate correct? Despite of the size of the area, any area in which only one race resides is a defacto ethnostate, right? What governmental model rules Leith at that point? Would there still be a system of taxation on the residents?

“typically envision whites retaining most (though not all) of the present territory of the United States. I don’t think that’s possible, or even desirable anymore, but there may be bits and pieces of those earlier proposals that could still be of value.”

I agree with you. I don’t think that’s possible for whites to retain all of the present territory. Let’s assume they do retain a portion though, a large portion. When you say “most”, percentage wise, how much are we talking? Now, you only said whites. Does this include your standard white nationalist type whites or are anti-white whites lumped in there too? I haven’t forgotten, no premium for those guys.

“Point is, it certainly *could* be done peacefully. But will it? Doubtful,”

Why so doubtful? If not peacefully then how? RAHOWA?

“What is our fault is that as of now, even we WN can’t agree on where the future White Republic should be, so at this point it’s about promoting an aspiration, a dream, with specific details lacking.”

Again, I agree with you. This is my major criticism. There’s no plan.

Trainspotter

Spelunker: “I guess a big part of my skepticism is how do we get from the current government/taxation model based on a union of States, to something else basically resembling a bunch of autonomous States.”

I think the basic concept in the peaceful scenario is that it would be incumbent upon each newly independent territory (whether it be only one, with most of the United States intact, or many with the United States either gone entirely or much reduced) to make as whole as reasonably possible those people that it expects to leave the territory. At the very least that means full compensation for any real estate that the leavers might have, as that can by definition not be taken with them. What the family does with that money is their affair. I’d suggest that in any peaceful scenario that is remotely plausible (and you know I doubt ANY peaceful solution), blacks would have far more destinations to choose from then any particular rundown city. Otherwise, sort of by definition, the partition would never have enough consensus to avoid massive violence. So “peaceful solution” in effect translates into “everybody has a lot of options.” It just wouldn’t work otherwise.

I suggested an additional premium be paid to non-whites, yet not whites, but it’s impossible to say how much the premium should or even could be. At the very least it should cover moving expenses. If possible, it should be greater than that, though how much greater would of course be constrained by economic conditions. The new white nation will likely struggle for a number of years before it can secure its economic footing.

By the way, I don’t suggest that this is “fair.” Lives and careers will be disrupted and, in some cases, changed forever. I’m just saying that it’s a lot more fair than how these things are often done, with people given five minutes to pack what they can, hitting the road penniless with not much more than the clothes on their backs.

Another possibility, probably more likely as a peaceful scenario, is that the new ethnostates could simply offer a bonus to leavers, but not require anyone to leave. The white ethnostate would, gradually, become whiter over time, as would the black ethnostate become blacker, but nobody HAS to move.

Again, my point here is not to try to snow you into thinking that all of this is going to amount to a walk through the park. It’s just to point out that there are basically peaceful approaches that could minimize disruption to the extent reasonably possible. It should also be noted that plenty of areas would likely remain mixed, by choice. That’s fine too. The basic point is that we don’t have to slaughter one another in order to separate. Some divorces are more amicable than others.

Spelunker: “I don’t not want to see those people again or be separated from them, where do we go? The race mixers and myself. Do we get our own race mixing ethnostate? That’s problematic too because I’m not a race mixer. Do I just get lumped in though?”

Each tribe will have to assert itself and, if successful, make its own rules. It is, for example, not my place to assert on behalf of blacks. I can simply say that I have no problem with them seeking sovereignty, I can understand it, and would be open to mutual cooperation if the opportunity arose. On the other hand, it wouldn’t terribly surprise me if they simply wanted to cut my throat. We’ll have to see how it plays out.

As to mixed race situations, again, not my place to assert on their behalf. If the scenario that plays out is one in which a white nation is created, but the rest of the United States stays intact, I guess you guys will end up with almost the entire country. If there is a greater breakup, I’m confident that there will be a variety of mixed areas. I can’t imagine a peaceful scenario in which you would not be able to continue living just as you have been, since if people’s arrangements are unduly disrupted, they probably won’t tolerate the proposal without resorting to massive violence.

Spelunker: “Despite of the size of the area, any area in which only one race resides is a defacto ethnostate, right?”

Well, you have to start somewhere, and it may well be that the future white nation has its beginnings in very small communities. But no, I wouldn’t consider an extremely small white community to be viable long term. The new nation must be large enough to be able to protect itself in terms of defense, to support the full range of social, cultural and economic institutions, such as universities, the arts, industry, etc. We will not be able to secure the existence of our people over the long haul if we are inordinately small, and obviously vulnerable to those who mean us ill. On the other hand, I don’t think we need to be huge either.

As to the remnants that don’t join us, I imagine that they will largely amalgamate with non-whites over the next several generations. They will become something distinct from us, likely with their own identity, as has happened in many of the mixed populations of Latin America or the Coloreds of South Africa. They will not see themselves as a European descended people any longer, because in large measure they won’t be. They will see us as alien and distinct, as we will see them. We will both be right.

Spelunker: “When you say “most”, percentage wise, how much are we talking?”

If I understand the question, I’d say that most WN’s would be extremely satisfied with ten to twenty percent of the present territory of the United States. You guys are welcome to the rest. Enjoy!

Spelunker: “There’s no plan.”

Agreed, but there is a dream. That’s where it has to start. Objectively, it’s highly likely that I and most WN’s promoting this today will never see the dream fulfilled, yet we still promote it. That should tell you something: it’s a powerful dream.

Spelunker

“it’s impossible to say how much the premium should or even could be. At the very least it should cover moving expenses”

At the very least, it has to be available. Where does the money come from? There has to be some sort of trigger that would set this in motion. Minus some massive disruption to our lives, this idea goes nowhere. Any sort of major disruption to our way of life would, in my opinion, also include some sort of massive economic disruption, which would make this even harder to be realized.

“The basic point is that we don’t have to slaughter one another in order to separate”

The other basic point is we don’t have to separate. I agree with ol’ Lamp, I live in a diverse area and am experiencing no problems. I also am cool with you packing up and moving to North Dakota. Really, I am. I know that a lot of people would give me crap for that, but I don’t care. I just don’t care where you go, if it’s away from me, I’d be perfectly fine with it. I hear that Orania still has space.

“the new ethnostates could simply offer a bonus to leavers, but not require anyone to leave”

Wait, so you establish an ethnostate, offer people who “don’t belong there” incentives to leave, but then leave the choice up to them? What the what? So you haven’t established anything then.

“The white ethnostate would, gradually, become whiter over time”

Like a loooooong time right? Not in yours or my lifetime. If I’m to believe all of your sides doomsdaying, we don’t have the kind of time you need to make this happen.

“If the scenario that plays out is one in which a white nation is created, but the rest of the United States stays intact, I guess you guys will end up with almost the entire country” […]”The new nation must be large enough to be able to protect itself in terms of defense”

So we have more or less the current Federal Government and you have the militia movement, how in the heck are you going to defend against our Army?

“We will not be able to secure the existence of our people over the long haul if we are inordinately small”

Estimate of how much of the current white population would you need to secure the existence of your people? When you say things like secure your existence it conjures images of two lonely humans in a zoo being mated to try and save them from extinction. Now that’s melodrama! It’s also not aligned with reality. I went and saw a rock concert recently, I can assure you, whites are doing fine.

“ten to twenty percent of the present territory of the United States”

You can’t have California Mo-Fo becuz I like it in Monterey.

“it’s highly likely that I and most WN’s promoting this today will never see the dream fulfilled, yet we still promote it. That should tell you something”

Agreed. Your last statement is perhaps your most profound. There is a reason for this, it’s a much too massive an undertaking with way too many unknowns. It’s cool to have a dream, but you also need to have a plan. Matt Parrott outlined 5 scenarios I’m still trying to wrap my head around. Unfortunately, he talks in “college professor” speak and I talk in “wood shop teacher” speak. I’ll try and sum up what I think he means by each of the 5 with a couple of words.

Zionist Model = Israel
Mormon Model = Guy who has a vision and heads West with Kool Aid drinkers
Racist Rapture Model = aka the “Prepper” Model, veering wildly into Alex Jones territory
Aryan Spring Model = Arab Spring meets Ku Klux Klan
Cherokee Model = The turkey carves itself

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

Challenge accepted.

Zionist Model

When the polymath Louis Brandeis, fellow Kentuckiana native, played a pivotal role in dreaming up Zionism, he had no viable roadmap for success. The Jewish people were literally scattered all around the entire world, and were the target of a large and growing movement against them. The deus ex machina arrived shortly after his death, with the gaping power vacuum resulting from the implosion of the British Empire affording Zionism the Black Swan opportunity it needed to transition from idealistic fantasy to waking life.

He couldn’t foresee this. He didn’t need to. His work was constructing the vision, hope, and sense of unity which are all prerequisites for ethnogenesis (or ethno-renaissance, if you will). He doggedly devoted himself to a project which he wasn’t around to enjoy the fruits from. I strongly suspect that if he were around to comment, he would be disappointed that both the Jewish Supremacists and the Jewish Marxists have teamed up to bungle his original vision of a unified and humble ethnic homeland for his future generations.

Mormon Model

From time to time throughout history, men come along who are brilliant and charismatic enough to move mountains, sociologically. The Prophet Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jr., Genghis Khan, and others come to mind. Perhaps our work will inspire and frame his work, serving as a foundation and infrastructure. Joseph Smith, Jr. and his handful of alienated cranks carved a homeland out of the wilderness, handily fighting off all challengers and concocting a pretty elaborate identity and tradition from random scraps they picked up along the road to Deseret.

Racist Rapture Model

It’s obligatory to include this, as it’s the dominant model in our circles. Various mega-trends are unsustainable, with the net result being an implosion of the United States as we know it. In the thrilling Mad Max scenario, White Americans will experience a reawakening of identity as they mow down the teeming hordes of muds spilling out of the decadent urban centers. Confederate flags will be whipping behind our four-wheelers as we peel around the countryside bartering gold and silver coins for cheeseburgers and hotdogs prepared in broken down RVs with solar panels on them tucked into the mountainside.

Aryan Spring Model

The federal government’s game is increasingly alienating itself to a world which is recovering from colonialism, Marxism, and brothers’ wars. FedGov’s time-honored strategy of ripping countries apart by propping up indigenous dissident factions (see: Arab Spring) could well be turned against it at some point in the future. Iran, Russia, China, or some other country interested in destabilizing the United States could do for White Nationalists what the United States has been doing for the Syrian Rebel Army.

Cherokee Model

The United States government may not necessarily “collapse”, but rather weaken and adapt to a more decentralized reality. It may invite China to set up large autonomous enterprise zones along the Western seaboard, grant Latin Americans a special Autonomously Zoned Territory of Latinos, Asians, and Natives in the Southwest, grant the Lakota Nation and Gullah/Geechee Nation the sovereignty they’ve been lobbying for. If the sacred parameters of the territory are compromised, then there may be a legal, moral, and psychological framework within which a White homeland of some sort could be carved up.

Conclusion

Perhaps I’ll go full hog with the Aryan Spring Model with piles of renminbi from my Asiatic paymasters and Heimbach will collaborate with the federal government to cut me off at the knees by brokering a semi-sovereign homeland in the Pacific Northwest. Perhaps the Yellowstone Cauldron will go and none of this will matter. Perhaps my entire model is flawed in some heretofore unknown way and I’ll die alone in a little shack having accomplished nothing but angering and confusing strangers.

There’s simply no way to tell how the future’s going to play out. The Irish and Jewish peoples once started with nothing more than idealistic fantasies which seemed altogether unrealistic and “out of touch” when they were first presented. The unifying thing about all these scenarios which would ensure our survival as a distinct people is that they all require the development and preservation of a coherent identity and sense of a shared destiny.

TradYouth’s focus is on tribe and tradition, not on conquering the Pacific Northwest. We realize how much work we’ve got to do, and we’re aware of how silly we look at the moment. Race is merely one aspect of identity among many, and our refusal to compromise on it and willingness to stand for our racial identity shouldn’t be confused for a belief that race is synonymous with identity. Being a family is about more than being related, …but being related is a start.

The Liberty Lamp

And within all of those models comes copious problems and issues. Concentrated drug and alcohol abuse, violence, pedophilia …

As a Jew I can tell you that Hasidic communities are a detriment on society. As someone who has been to Israel, I can tell you that I found the nationalism repulsive. I will not go into anymore, but I will state that I refuse to go back.

I don’t understand why anyone would want to live under those models. Splunkie and the Lamp collective live in very diverse areas. I cannot speak for Splunkie, but I find our diverse area works just fine.

Matt Parrott

And within all of those models comes copious problems and issues.

Then opt out. And go ahead and be on vigil to ensure that we don’t trample anybody’s rights in our pursuit of our goals. I don’t wish to deny you the right to live in a diverse community. Unlike some nationalists, I don’t resent interracial couples or people who prefer diverse decadent communities. You do your thing, we’ll do ours.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- there is no opt, one way or the other. I am not stamping on your rights, I am just pointing out that these idealistic concepts are not plausible and when tried they fail on their own accord.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

You’re actively working to undermine my attempt to secure the survival and self-determination of my people. Not to be melodramatic here, but you are definitely stamping on my rights. If I went to Tibet and did everything I could to dox and troll Tibetan Nationalists, I would not only be trampling their rights, I would be complicit in their genocide.

Spelunker

Ok, I’ve breezed through the 5 models, which one would you like to discuss in depth first?

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

Let’s start with the one you won’t reflexively oppose because it’s proponents’ skin is white.

The Liberty Lamp

Matt- We working to make sure the “volatiles” in your group don’t push things too far, and you know that. The more of a magnifying glass we put over them, the more they control their urges, that’s the way human nature usually works.

We never bothered you before, we never went after you when you were doing the C of CC stuff, but when you start playing with crazy we have to pay attention.

So, take yourself off the rhetoric cross and tone down the melodrama.

We are not in Tibet, we are not in a nationalist country, we have not dox’d you or your family and won’t.

Don’t blame us, blame the bad choices you have made and what you have surrounded yourself with because you are not really the target, they are.

I have not approached you on attack, I have approached you with dialogue, keep that in mind.

Spelunker

I am approaching this with an open mind. I am coming at it from the view that any of the 5 models you laid out is plausible.

I’ll start though.

I am interested in the Aryan Spring Model. Let’s explore that one. Now I am not as gifted as some of you. I have to go a little slow… What we are talking about is something similar to what happened in Egypt, but what you’re saying is replace the US backing for Chinese or Russian backing. It’s a classic power vacuum. Of all of your listed models, I think this one is the easiest to achieve. Here’s why. China owns us. They own our debt, or at least I have been lead to believe they do. It’s no secret they hate us. This would probably be so easy for China to do, the question is, why haven’t they already? Let’s say this was to be the model that gets us to that point, how would it unfold? Even if we end up in separate ethnostates, what would the Chinese gain from that besides a dissolution of the Union and destabilization of our economy even further? Why would having 20 separate Nations all residing on one Continent be any different than one Union made up of all the same people, besides complicating relations much more. Instead of dealing with one A-hole, you’ve got 20 to contend with now. Why would that be preferable?

Matt Parrott

We are not in Tibet

You can quibble about the motives and methods, but genocide is still genocide. I really try to avoid overstating my position, but I believe the shoe fits.

We working to make sure the “volatiles” in your group don’t push things too far, and you know that.

I think your theory is backwards, not that I’m complaining. If it weren’t for the effectiveness of occupational discrimination and fear of “outing”, then White Nationalism would be a booth among booths at CPAC, eagerly jockeying for influence within the mainstream political process (read: neutralized). You’re like an antibiotic that kills off the healthy safe bacteria, leaving behind the most virulent bacteria to breed uncontested.

I have not approached you on attack, I have approached you with dialogue, keep that in mind.

I’m keeping that in mind, and enjoying and appreciating the spirited dialogue.

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

This would probably be so easy for China to do, the question is, why haven’t they already?

The Middle Kingdom is notoriously insular, though it’s gradually and carefully speaking up in more and more geopolitical matters, becoming more and more territorial about what it perceives as its realm. Ultimately, China’s not going to get overtly hostile towards us as long as the debt-for-plastic trade relationship remains strong. China’s reaching the bottom of its barrel of gifted and talented destitute laborers, with wages creeping up. America’s appetite for the plastic is getting satiated. China’s understandably getting anxious about the bag of debt it’s holding.

Let’s say this was to be the model that gets us to that point, how would it unfold?

It would begin with China “trolling” US interests in the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood trolls its interests with Al Jazeera English and Russia trolls its interests with Russia Today. China’s already created its own English language news channel, so that may already be underway. At some point, they’ll dabble in actively selling weapons to and supporting militants in some proxy war somewhere, or whatever. The only thing bigger than China is its massive inferiority complex, and it’s got a few million “extra” young males who pose a threat to their stability.

Even if we end up in separate ethnostates, what would the Chinese gain from that besides a dissolution of the Union and destabilization of our economy even further?

The theory here is pretty settled. Israel’s been pitting Islamic factions against one another for decades, ensuring that they’re not a unified front capable of threatening their existence.

A North America in which the Pacific Northwest is a proxy state under Russia’s aegis, the Southwest aligns with Latin America, the Southeast is aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Northeast is a Brazilian multicult circus … is a North America that wouldn’t and couldn’t defend Taiwan from the Mainland, thwart Russia’s designs in Eastern Europe, or even fight Israel’s wars for her against her Islamic neighbors.

Spelunker

” they’ll dabble in actively selling weapons to and supporting militants in some proxy war somewhere,”

Weapons, I thought the goal was a peaceful, amicable separation? Don’t the “militants” already have plenty of guns? This doesn’t sound like it would end in a peaceful solution.

So more or less, China or some other Nation would arm “the rebels”. As in White Nationalists, Patriots, Conservatives… Whites. Those rebels would bring about the radical transformation via RAHOWA then.

Am I off base?

The Liberty Lamp

Ummmm “genocide”? Really Matt, if you think that shoe fits, what kind of shoes are you wearing?

CPAC is a funny little carnival. Our favorite “arrogant bi-polar” is a regular there. And when Youth for Western Civ was a brand spanking new group sponsored by LI and VDare, he was manning the table.

Your two comrades attended last year and made the papers. I am not sure I’d call it good PR, but if you are of the ilk that no publicity is bad publicity, I guess you’ll take the 15 minutes when you can get it.

Personally, I liked it better when David Keen was running it. He was not a bad guy for a libertarian, but his civil libertarian ideals for the event pissed off the traditional types and he’s gone now.

No, you are not the CPAC type, but you have fallen in with more extreme types than your old C of CC crowd.

When you start playing with this kind of fire you need to realize the possibility of this fire harming others.

I am not asking you to admit you know what I am talking about, and it is probably better that you don’t. But if you in anyway feel something going “wrong”, you do everything in your power to make sure things don’t get ugly.

We are not about “outing” with your crowd, they are already out, we are about throwing a spotlight on a bad thing brewing in the shadows.

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

Weapons, I thought the goal was a peaceful, amicable separation? Don’t the “militants” already have plenty of guns?

Money does wonders for organizational development, military shenanigans aside. I just laid out plausible scenarios where a White ethnostate could come about. TradYouth doesn’t really answer the “how” for how our identity would assert its right to exist. We’re not some kind of military vanguard, we’re an advocacy group. My hope is that it will come about peacefully, as many ethno-states have come about before.

Am I off base?

Not really. I mean, they would also be funding other radicals, and would probably encourage the factions to team up against FedGov rather than squabbling with each other. FedGov sort of has that problem now with the Arab Spring, where the fundies and modernizers desperately want to go after each other, but FedGov ensures that they’re bedfellows against Assad.

Geopolitics is messy, and I’m not trying to make this situation happen myself. I’m just saying it’s a plausible scenario which could put our team back in the game.

Matt Parrott

Lamp,

When you start playing with this kind of fire you need to realize the possibility of this fire harming others.

I am not asking you to admit you know what I am talking about, and it is probably better that you don’t. But if you in anyway feel something going “wrong”, you do everything in your power to make sure things don’t get ugly.

You (and the League and everybody else) are reading way too much into our recent overtures. That being said, attacks on or harassment of minorities are antithetical to everything we’re trying to do. I think a lot of your concerns circle around a 90’s retro idea about our subcultures which don’t accurately reflect facts on the ground in 2013. Either way, I’m sincerely opposed to violent thuggery against minorities and would do everything in my power to thwart it.

I even discourage violence against antifa thugs once they’re neutralized. You can ask Mason about that yourself.

The Liberty Lamp

“the league”?

Which league are you referring to?

1. The Human League
2. Ivy League
3. Premiere League
4. Jr League
5. Justice League
6. League of Legends
7. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
8. League of Nations
9. Little League
10. A League of their Own
11. League of Women Voters
12. National League of Antiquarian Book Sellers (I think I like this one the best!)
13 The League of Imaginary Scientists (okay I like this one better!)
14. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
15. Urban Debate League

Did I miss any?

Dustin

There’s an assumption being made here that every single person protesting against Tim Wise wants an ethnostate.

I think the ethnostate model is a failure. After the abdication of the Tsar in Russia, everybody in Russia wanted their own ethnostate. And what happened? They were all gobbled up by the Marxist monster called the USSR.

After WWI ended, everybody in the West wanted their own ethnostate, too (the Poles, the Hungarians, the Irish, etc.) And what happened? They were all gobbled up by either the USSR, and/or the Marxist entity known as the EEC/EU.

Only a truly massive empire ruled over by an enlightened king can stop the international Marxists and leftists in their tracks.

Spelunker

No, I’ve not made that assumption. I’m speaking mostly to the Traditionalist Youth Network leaders, Matt and Matt. Both have advocated for an all white ethnostate, I just want to know how they envision that happening. In addition, anyone else that wants to chime in is fine by me. Should have clarified.

Lew

Lew- Since its is obvious that you are NOT the real Lew Rockwell, but a lesser imitation model, let me try to point out to you that a few nonprofit 501C3s are not necessarily the reflection of what will be in the future.
The real Lew Rockwell would know how the game is played, you obviously are running on passed down bullet points.

My bullet point, that tribe matters, is probably as old as language and cognition.

If you want to claim that tribe is increasingly irrelevant in a globalized world, it would be helpful if you gave examples of peoples who collectively act like tribe is becoming irrelevant in a globalized world.

Trainspotter

Just thinking out loud:

Perhaps counter-intuitively, it could be argued that tribe is even more relevant in a globalized world. In the past, the poor state of technology and communication often led to a de facto isolation of various communities. A given community may have had a foreign ruler in theory, perhaps being part of a vast empire or kingdom, but on the village level community customs and traditions likely prevailed, at least to a great extent. Strangers would have been a rare curiosity, and for the most part traditional rhythms were uninterrupted. There was no mass media to constantly pump alien themes into the village square. Obviously there would have been exceptions to this general state of affairs, but just saying.

Whereas today, globalization shoves itself squarely in people’s faces, no matter where they are. Its reach is vast, and for all practical purposes it cannot be escaped. It attacks everything about a given people, from their economic basis to their identity, to their most deeply held values. Essentially, globalism attacks everything that provides context and meaning in the life of a people.

If we view various peoples and communities as, essentially, distinct ecosystems or habitats, these various habitats are repeatedly disrupted and distorted by globalism. The de facto isolation that protected them in the past, whether they had technical sovereignty or not, is gone.

I think a very good argument could be made that an authentic tribalism has the potential to restore communities to something more satisfying of human requirements at all levels. Trade and various forms of exchange can of course continue, but not to the detriment of the tribe.

In other words, the more you face disruption, the more important it is to have a solid base, a meaningful home. Tribalism can provide that, and since the de facto protections of the past are gone, today a greater level of sovereignty is required in order for the community to meaningfully control, or even influence, its own destiny.

Spelunker

I’d still like to discuss the other 4 options you laid out, but what stands out is that these are all just possible scenarios, not plans. There is no plan. There is no A to Z, just a bunch of speculation as to different things that could happen. Devoid of a plan, this idea ends in failure. I don’t get the sense so far that any of you have put any real thought into this ethnostate idea. I actually enjoyed Trainspotters commentary and not just because it made my point for me, but mostly because he was truthful about it. Don’t let me discourage you if this is your dream, but also, don’t tell me your intentions are good and be quoted as saying that you think it’s a great idea to put land mines on our border to stop people from crossing into our country (referencing Heimbach, not Parrott). Land mines kill people. Maybe some of you think that’s necessary, I disagree. This propaganda tightrope you’re trying to walk is very thin. No one is going to engage any of your ideas when there are pictures of one of you standing under swastika banners amongst a sea of people giving a Seig Heil salute, while you’re giving something that very closely resembles a Seig Heil salute. That was purposely done in my opinion by the way. The popular refrain would be that minus that no ones going to take you seriously anyway and that’s true, because at the end of the day, no one is fooled by what this really is. Whatever your intentions might be, which I have my own opinion on as well, your actions are much more telling than your words. I can’t think of one single person I’ve ever known in my life that’s ever said “14/88” to me or even more, that even knows what that means. You can’t spit without hitting someone wrapped up in the “14/88 culture” related to the Traditionalist Youth Network. That’s by choice. Don’t go crying the “they said I’m a racist blues” when you’re clearly surrounding yourselves with people who live that kind of lifestyle. I’m getting really off track, but I’d accept any of the 5 scenarios you laid out as being plausible, what’s the plan though? If our economy really implodes tomorrow, what is your plan? What you’re admitting in many more big words than are necessary, is that for all of your clear leadership abilities, you don’t have any idea what you would do. You have no idea how this pipe dream would be funded. I’d have more respect for this entire idea if you could really show how it would work, but you can’t. Chalk that up as another clear failure in a string of failures.

Matt Parrott

Spelunker,

There is no plan. There is no A to Z, just a bunch of speculation as to different things that could happen.

You’re demanding a degree of false precision in the answer altogether incommensurate with the panoply of known unknowns and unknown unknowns in the future. Furthermore, I’m only speaking on behalf of TradYouth in this context, and describing how it could be the critical first step toward self-determination in those scenarios.

TradYouth is necessary but insufficient. I don’t have all the answers, and my limited grasp of the future necessarily limits how precise my statements about the future can be.

I don’t get the sense so far that any of you have put any real thought into this ethnostate idea.

I don’t get the sense that you’ve bothered to peruse my more abstract and academic work.

Land mines kill people.

I’m opposed to land mines in particular.

No one is going to engage any of your ideas when there are pictures of one of you standing under swastika banners amongst a sea of people giving a Seig Heil salute, while you’re giving something that very closely resembles a Seig Heil salute.

No one who’s normal, that is. It would certainly be an epic failure in our messaging if we were playing by mass democracy house rules.

The popular refrain would be that minus that no ones going to take you seriously anyway and that’s true, because at the end of the day, no one is fooled by what this really is.

So you’re sure that I’m a White Supremacist monster?

Whatever your intentions might be, which I have my own opinion on as well, your actions are much more telling than your words.

Even you, from your perspective, must grudgingly admit that there’s a bit more dignity in just simply coming out with a simple pro-White position and associating with simple pro-White people than desperately trying to appear “respectable” to mainstream and anti-White audiences who aren’t going to go near our ideas short of some dramatic change in social and political circumstances.

You act as if you would respect us or even support us if we could somehow dress a little nicer, speak a little more carefully, and be a little more snobbish with our networking. I call bullshit.

I can’t think of one single person I’ve ever known in my life that’s ever said “14/88″ to me or even more, that even knows what that means. You can’t spit without hitting someone wrapped up in the “14/88 culture” related to the Traditionalist Youth Network. That’s by choice.

I have a choice to either reject them for flimsy and classist subcultural reasons or invite the remnant among them aboard who are willing and able to adopt the TradYouth vision.

Don’t go crying the “they said I’m a racist blues” when you’re clearly surrounding yourselves with people who live that kind of lifestyle.

I’m not. Most of them are honest working class folks who’ve for one reason or another become racially aware and motivated. I’m not quite sure what “lifestyle” you’re talking about. I believe you’re drinking your own kool-aid here, imagining that skinheads go around harassing colored folks just for the kicks. That’s happened in the past, and I think that’s unfortunate, but you’re unfairly and inaccurately stereotyping.

If our economy really implodes tomorrow, what is your plan?

I can’t just lay it all out for you as I dangle you over the shark tank, like a comic book villain! If the economy imploded tomorrow, I would panic, as we’re nowhere near where we need to be organizationally or logistically to execute our long-term strategy. Unlike every other White Nationalist, I pray that this system holds out a bit longer.

Chalk that up as another clear failure in a string of failures.

Damn. I suppose I’ll have to look elsewhere for encouragement and validation.

Lew

Trainspotter,

Perhaps counter-intuitively, it could be argued that tribe is even more relevant in a globalized world.

I think you are right, and I believe an important distinction comes into play here. Specifically, I see evidence that globalism doesn’t undermine tribe and tradition but rather tradition only in many cases.

Second and third generation non-whites are as degenerate, materialistic and “anti-traditional” as any white person who grows up submerged in the culture. But in struggles for power, and despite their universalist lip service to the contrary, they embrace tribal identity to the core.

When is the last time you saw a second generation Mexican who watches NFL football instead of soccer, or a third generation Korean who carries an I-phone loaded with pop music, and both of whom patronize Starbucks, not playing the identity politics game? It never happens. They take full advantage of the anti-white system even while rejecting their peoples’ traditional ways because they understand doing so in in their tribe’s interests.

An example of this trend shows up in this article. In part, it’s about two Westernized Indians using the anti-white cultural frame to further their careers at the expense of white men (and by extension their wives and children).

So when I say I don’t see other groups rushing to reject tribalism because we live in an globalized world, this is what I mean. I believe the evidence shows that non-whites are rushing to reject tradition having comes under the sway of globalism but not tribe.

The white liberals who think multi-cultural/racialism will work for them because they often interact with some very pleasant second and third generation Americanized non-whites at places like Whole Foods, or because New York is a thriving multi-racial city, couldn’t be more mistaken. Those pleasant Indians, Mexicans and Muslims are still pursue their tribal interests at the expense of white folks.

If this anti-white jew “Liberty Lamp” were correct that globalist influences inexorably undermine tribe, then we would see all peoples rushing to reject tribal politics. But we don’t. We never will. It’s a superficially plausible but highly dishonest claim and typically jewish.

Matt Parrott

Lamp speaks as if the confluence of very different tribes in close proximity is a novel phenomenon. The most tribal places on earth are places like India and the Middle East, places which have experienced multiple complete Spenglerian cycles while my own ancestors were prancing about the forest with spears in blue face paint.

A complete survey of history shows Lamp’s work for what it is (independent of what he thinks or says it is). It’s an attempt by a member of a competitive outgroup to weaken and dissolve the tribal cohesion which could threaten his own tribe. Even though he’s indeed doing it some within his own tribe, his tribe has a strong resistance to this sort of campaign, with the net effect of Horowitz and Geller chuckling indifferently while White Americans clamor and climb over one another like frightened hogs to escape the terrifying social shaming tactics.

Social shaming and occupational discrimination are to Whites what whiskey and disease blankets were to Native Americans.

The Liberty Lamp

Is crying about “jews” the bases of your whole argument? The fake “Lew” I can see, but Matt is just propagandizing with more drama.

Tribalism is on the way out. That is my educated guess, and my opinion, but I stand by it.

You can get all emo and cry about “JOOOZ” the Illuminati-the NWO-space aliens-and all other boogie men under your beds and talking to you in your breakfast cereals to blame for our changing world and societies, but the reality is it is just the natural process of things.

Gathering five people on an overpass to wave a few flags and banners at traffic who won’t even pay attention to you might make you feel better, but it won’t change the disintegration of archaic tribal ideals.

Now, kids, I put off real life work trying to explain to you that fairytales aren’t real.

You can take the insight, or remain in your cos play games and pretend your fantasies have a place in reality.

Good luck with that!

Peace!

Niemca

You can get all “emo” and cry about “goyim” and “anti-semitism” and gnomes living under bridges and other sundry superstitions to try to cast blame for our changing world and societies, but the reality is it is just the natural process of things.

I’m sorry your ancestors inbred for more than a millennium rendering your people fugly and full of genetic defects, but don’t expect Whites to participate in your fantasy that cousins have great sex. Israel is the only country in the world where citizens have to register to make sure they don’t inbreed, and jews are the only group who require an entire panel of genetic testing before undergoing fertility treatment.

Chosen by ‘God’ to invade other people’s land, and subjugate and genocide, and the rest of your talmudic ‘ideals,’ are fairytales that just aren’t real.

I’m actually sorry to have to tell you that. No one chooses their parents, but people do choose their values and ideologies, and code of morality.

Spelunker

I have seen the police report. While I believe there probably were 3 people, the police report does not confirm that, it only says that witnesses claim there were 2 others besides Welch. As for mace, you should probably retract this claim: “Antifa Ambushes Trad Youth with knives, mace, and improvised weapons, Antifa still loses. White Pride World Wide” no mace found on Welch only a mention of you guys using it.

Matt Parrott

I didn’t write that headline. I can only confirm one knife and one improvised weapon with my own eyes. Just because the police report failed to confirm it doesn’t mean it didn’t occur.

Spelunker

Well anything is possible, but given the police report, I think it’s unlikely. The report specifically states that, “Buhls stated that he and another male restrained Welch and also used a chemical spray (mace) on him.” It goes on to say of Welch, “Welch was patted down for weapons in which a folding pocket knife and a lock tied to a piece of cloth were found and confiscated.” The report doesn’t mention an elderly gentleman being assaulted, for whatever reason, but we all know how sloppy those police are. The headline is wrong no matter how you slice it, no one was ambushed with knives, mace or improvised weapons. The attacker was in possession of two of the three items, but did not use them. The headline is a lie at worst and stretching the truth as far as one can at best, but hey, that’s how you play the propaganda game, right?

Matt Parrott

Yesterday, you were renouncing violence and today you’re doing PR for the thugs who came at us with deadly weapons.

Unlike you, I actually and actively discourage violence and don’t apologize for or excuse it when it occurs. You’ve probably already perused my arguments with Holocaust Deniers and others on our side who are our own equivalent of people like yourself.

I’m starting to get why you’re always suspecting I’m thinking and meaning something entirely different every time I say something.

Spelunker

I’m still renouncing violence, always. I haven’t changed a bit since yesterday, so good try. PR for thugs? Hardly. I don’t do PR, I do facts. I’m cool with the fact you guys defended yourselves against an attack. It’s unfortunate that some people think that’s the way to work out problems. What Welch did was a stupid move, but guess what, I’m not responsible for him, Welch is. I drive my own car. I’m just trying to figure out the truth of what happened for myself. I think that the report that you might have maced yourselves is starting to sound more and more plausible, especially since he didn’t have any mace on him.

I’d actually love it if Welch would like to tell his side of the story, not that he would want to, but just so we could have some balance.

The whole shooting the messenger tactic, me being the messenger, is not going to work here because now that the facts are out people can make up their own minds. If you want to cast doubt on the police or their report, fine, but tell me one thing I said that wasn’t accurate?

Dustin

You’re not a “messenger”, you’re a leftist troll. And if this were my website, you’d be gone from here.

Seriously, Matthew, why are these people allowed to be here, spewing their nonsense? I thought you were against their freedom to do so. If you truly hate freedom, let’s start taking away their freedom right now, starting with this website.

Spelunker

He’s right Matt. If Obama had speech, it would look like this. Obviously the diversity of ideas and multiculturalism of the mind is not working here. We should peacefully separate now. Holy cow. If I get up and leave right now and don’t put up a fight and go live on my blog and you stay here and live on yours, we will have created a virtual ethnostate. Dustin is such a genius, if only he could make it work in real life. See ya later ladies.

Spelunker

Matt Parrott: “Either way, the police report is welcome in the conversation if somebody wishes to produce it.”

That is until someone wishes to produce it.

Spelunker

I have already quoted the only two lines in the whole report that bring anything new to the discussion. I’m not posting it, if people really want to see it, they can go find it just like I did. That being said, there’s really nothing new. For the most part the story is the story. The only new things were that Welch didn’t have mace and you guys did and used it. I’m not criticizing you for using it, self defense is a right.

Tom

Spelunker- if you really do have the police report like you claim, then post it here.

Put up or shut up.

Spelunker

That reminds me of that Dead Milkmen song, “Shoot up or shut up, shoot up or shut up, shoot up or shut up, shoot up or shut up!”

Alex Kinkade

Religion, for one thing. As such, it simply is not necessary in order to further the cause of white racial preservation and advancement. Yes, one CAN inject religion into white nationalism, as Matt Heimbach is busily doing. True, some Christians may feel warmly embraced by it. And it might even wring a few extra nickles into the fuzzy pockets of your organization. Even so, the message of white nationalism is so utterly powerful in its own right (that of white racial extinction) that it needs nothing else to aid and abet it.

Briefly, Christianity is largely presented to Americans as an all-inclusive religion uniting all races the world over, promising eternal salvation in the hereafter. So whenever Matt Heimbach goes full-retard-religious on people, they immediately experience a severe case of cognitive dissonance.

On the one hand, they think, whites as a race are threatened with obliteration and they’d like to help stop it. On the other, their religion (the one Matt Heimbach is pushing) also tells them that God loves “all the children of the world; red & yellow, black, brown & white, they are precious in His sight!” — thus psychologically and emotionally erecting immediate barriers in order to reject Mr. Heimbach’s message.

Yes, yes, I know. Mr. Heimbach’s particular brand of Christianity is “special”, and thus using it to promote white nationalism is not a hindrance to its message being received.

Only it is. It always has been; always will be.

In the end, our only “religion” should be the survival and the advancement of white civilization, sans anything else. And blasphemies of blasphemies, if either the white race or Christianity must die, oh dear God let it be the latter…

Matt Parrott

Kinkade,

Faith aside, White people don’t work like that.

Parochial secular identitarianism doesn’t scale with a population as inclined toward altruism and abstraction as ours. “Our race is our religion” works for a minority of atypical types, but is stillborn as an actual civic religion. A worldview which fails to account for the tribal “other” is flimsy enough to be kicked over by films and novels about the fundamental humanity of the “other”, if not the inevitable interaction with them that most White Americans now regularly experience.

Proposing that Jesus does indeed love all the little children, but also loves that they come in a variety of colors and wishes to celebrate and wishes for us to protect and preserve that diversity, achieves the same goal you’re pursuing while being altruistic and universal. The Christian pluriversalism (universal particularism) of Orthodox Nationalism, Protestant Kinism, and Catholic communitarianism sells better, makes more sense in our current geopolitical context, and is a shorter leap from where our target audience happens to be.

I hope skeptical and folk religionist nationalists take the time to work through some of their anti-Christian baggage and learn to trust and work with us better than we’ve all done in the past.

KO

Dear Mr. Kinkade: White civilization is Christian civilization. The Eastern Christians have fought Islam for 1400 years. The Christian Franks didn’t have any hesitation about protecting themselves from Moslem invaders. Christian Charles, Pippin, and Charles fought religious wars against the pagan Saxons. The Christian Angles and Saxons didn’t hesitate to defend themselves from pagan Danes. The conquest of America by Europeans was Christian-inspired. The American Revolution might never have happened without the Great Awakening. The Civil War was in part a religious crusade on both sides. And on and on. Only the modern, liberal perversion of Christianity discourages peoples from attempting to preserve themselves or even expand their holdings. if I’m not mistaken, Mr. Heimbach with his Jerusalem Cross avatar is lending a hand to recovering Christianity from those who heretically deny the Creator’s intentions with respect to human community, destiny, and struggle.

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